In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Terry McGovern, Harriet and Robert H. Heilbrunn Professor and Chair of the Heilbrunn Department of Population and Family Health and the Director of the Program on Global Health Justice and Governance at the Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health. They discuss the ramifications of the reversal of the Roe V. Wade Supreme Court decision on college campuses. The conversation includes the ripple effect of this controversial decision of SCOTUS on education, women’s health and the economy, the possible legal considerations colleges need to be aware of and act on to accommodate the ruling, and what parents and college students can to adjust to the shifting context of abortion in the U.S. today.
Links Mentioned In the Show:
- (01:07) A healthy discussion about the consequences of the recent reversal of the Supreme Court decision on Roe vs. Wade on college campuses
- (02:29) Making abortion illegal will not lessen its occurrence; it will increase maternal death
- (03:22) How the criminalization of abortion further endangers women in college who are already at an elevated risk for sexual violence
- (03:54) Adding fear into an already costly medical procedure for women in college
- (05:17) The role religion plays in universities, the new abortion ban, and women’s health
- (06:56) Why parents and female students need to reconsider their universities based on where they stand on the abortion verdict
- (08:32) Why Dobbs should not affect women’s access to Plan B and other emergency contraception
- (09:57) How Dobbs will impact Title IX cases and its provisions
- (10:15) What colleges universities need to act on with regards to Title IX cases in light of the abortion ban and criminalization
- (10:54) Will colleges face criminal risk or exposure for aiding a student’s travel to access abortion facilities
- (12:20) How the limitation of access to reproductive health has instilled a fear of risk of prosecution for colleges and its staff
- (15:44) The repercussions of the criminalization of abortion on women’s health, likelihood of completing college altogether, the economy and what it means for the state
- (17:11) Why section 504 of Title IX cases, the Rehabilitation Act, and the Americans with Disabilities Act need to adjust accordingly to the elimination of the constitutional right to abortion
- (18:27) Terry’s insights on the possibility of the reversal of the abortion ban in the future
- (20:52) Why a public health leader believes that the appropriate public response of universities about this ruling should favor bodily autonomy and the health outcome of their students
- (22:22) Ways in which students can campaign for women’s health after the recent SCOTUS ruling on abortion
- (26:02) Sound advice parents should give their college kids about sex and possibilities of pregnancy before sending them off
- (26:45) Why parents need to consider the possibility of their sons causing a pregnancy in college as well
- (29:27) The extreme lengths women may possibly take because of the criminalization of abortion
- (31:20) The heartbreaking impact of this decision on the mental and physical health of children
Kristina Supler: We’re so pleased today to be joined by Terry McGovern. Terry’s the Harriet and Robert Heilbrunn professor and chair of the Heilbrunn department of population and family health at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health. Since 2018, Terry served as director of the department’s program on global health health justice and governance. And before joining, joining the mailman school in 1989, Terry founded the HIV law project and served as the executive director until 1999. While at the HIV law project, Terry litigated the groundbreaking case. S P V Sullivan, which led to the social security administration, including HIV-related disability in their criteria.
Kristina Supler: She was appointed by President Bill Clinton to the national task force on aids, drug development, Terry, we’re so pleased to have you join us today. Thank you.
Susan Stone: Today’s topic is how the recent United States Supreme court Dobbs decision, which reversed Roe V. Wade will impact students on college campuses. And Kristina we’ve really struggled about how to do this podcast. Because we want it to be a meaningful discussion that provides parents with information in a way that’s helpful and shows some thought on our end.
Susan Stone: And I know, you know, that I was in Italy, on my honeymoon and I couldn’t get my mind off of. How to do this podcast? Who to have as a guest? And I feel so grateful for the guest that we’re gonna have today. I know I reached out to her via email and I really thought about my words. I think I crafted that email, those three short paragraphs with as much thought as I would craft a legal brief.
Susan Stone: And I’m so honored that she is here to talk about this topic.
Susan Stone: And thank you for answering my email.
Terry McGovern: Of course. Thank you for having me.
Susan Stone: Terry. First question. What is your reaction to the Dobbs decision? And just, could you give our listeners who are mostly parents an explanation of how it will impact students on various college campuses?
Terry McGovern: Sure. I have to say I was actually stunned. We know that making abortion illegal, doesn’t actually reduce abortion. There’s so much evidence globally of this. All it does is increase maternal mortality. So just from the point of view of wanting to end abortion, the way to do that, Is obviously to increase access to contraception and services.
Terry McGovern: It’s not to criminalize abortion. So from my perspective, this decision has really unleashed a whole lot of unnecessary harm on women and girls and people who can get pregnant. Of course in that category, we know that 57% of those who get abortions are women in their twenties. The latest data says 29% are college age students.
Terry McGovern: So we also know that, college age women are at an elevated risk of sexual violence. We know that there’s lots and lots of power issues. Negotiating sex. So for the women and girls who are in states, that abortion is now illegal and, and even criminalized this creates a very, very complicated set of decisions for them and a lot of complexity around everything having to do with a possible unintended pregnancy.
Terry McGovern: So obviously just to state the obvious students often don’t have access to cars. Their health insurance status is often dependent on parents. Many have jobs. There’s a lot going on when you’re in college. Before this decision accessing abortion was not easy. Right? So now you’ve injected into a very complicated situation, you know, a whole bunch of fear.
Terry McGovern: And I think, I think the, uh, the issue of costs and how much it will cost to actually get an abortion, to travel, to get an abortion. All of these things are gonna be very, very difficult for students. I think.
Kristina Supler: Susan and I, we represent students on campuses across the country. We deal with college students day in and day out. And we often start our conversations with parents, with the, the idea that look, every college campus has its own culture values. What flies on one campus? Doesn’t done another, right. So it’s fair to say at some schools, this decision might not have any impact on students and in other places might be absolutely monumental.
Kristina Supler: I mean, do you agree with that? What would you say?
Susan Stone: Especially with students at Columbia or Barnard? I don’t think it’s gonna be the same as students at Ohio state.
Terry McGovern: Of course not, of course not. I mean, obviously, OB people just generally in acts in states that are making moves to protect access to abortion are in way better shape.
Terry McGovern: Many of the colleges across the country actually even provide abortion medication, provide all kinds of services. It’s the colleges in the states that have these extreme bands now where it’s very scary. So for example, my son goes to college in Ohio. And the college that he goes to recently decided to contract with a religious provider.
Terry McGovern: So there are huge questions about what services will be available, whether there will ever be any help for an abortion referral out of state. So it is extremely diff different depending upon where you are. One of the things post-Dobbs is that people really do have to take a minute, figure out what the law is, where access is possible.
Terry McGovern: You know, these are, these are very serious things to think about for parents, for your kids in schools, because you don’t want to be scrambling.
Susan Stone: Depending on where you stand on the issue. I’m thinking Terry about myself. I have a rising junior in high school. We’re gonna start looking at colleges. Do you think that the Dobbs opinion will impact where students actually apply for college?
Terry McGovern: I think for sure. I think for sure. I mean, I think it should, these are very, very serious issues. Honestly I have never written a letter to my child’s college before. And I wrote immediately when I saw that they were going to contract with a, with a religious entity. Because I would have really extreme concerns about the safety of my child, in a place where they could not access any of these services.
Terry McGovern: We’re already seeing some polling of particularly girls who are thinking about crossing off the list schools that are in states that have total bans or, or criminalization provisions.
Susan Stone: So it’s gonna be even more difficult to get into Columbia. Or Barnard .
Terry McGovern: I mean, I, I think it’s pretty difficult, but I suppose it could get more difficult.
Terry McGovern: Yeah. It is really a very serious issue. If you’re a girl
Kristina Supler: there’s just even more for families to consider and, and to really be thoughtful about when trying to find the right campus for. For the students, Susan, and I I’d like to turn to a different issue that touches on the Dobb’s opinion.
Kristina Supler: We represent students across the country involved in campus Title IX proceedings. And we’ve had countless cases that in some way, shape or form involve economy that breaks in Plan B maybe no condom and Plan B is, is in many, many of our cases. Do you think that Dobbs is going to impact the availability of Plan B?
Terry McGovern: It should not. Many of us feel like Dobbs has opened the door to questioning everything that has to do with contraception, emergency contraception. Nothing in the opinion actually would lead to that conclusion, but it has unleashed a kind of unfettered dedication to denying access to anything, having to do with, sexual and reproductive health services and particularly contraception morning after et cetera.
Terry McGovern: The answer is mixed.
Susan Stone: That’s very interesting because what we’re also wrestling with Terry, and maybe you can help us sort this through, as student advisors in the Title IX process, we have dealt with situations where there have been unwanted pregnancies and abortions, and actually female complainants include the unwanted pregnancy as an aspect of a Title IX violation that they didn’t get consent to get pregnant as a different twist on consent.
Susan Stone: We’re wondering how will Dobbs impact Title IX? And do you think we’re gonna see a rise of the unwanted pregnancy being a component of this type of complaint on college campuses. And even in those states where abortion is illegal and maybe more so in those states.
Terry McGovern: Yeah. I mean, I think for sure, I mean the other issue isn’t Title IX only mandates excused absences for abortion and cases of medical necessity.
Terry McGovern: So there are a whole lot of issues around Title IX that have to be really thought about now. Given the, really this colleges should expand this definition of what is, a mandated excused absence. I do think for sure that you’ll see more, we’ll see more of these type cases. The other thing is that institutions should be establishing emergency funds, travel and care services.
Terry McGovern: Just, there’s a whole range of things, including looking at the Title IX provisions and expanding them that I think colleges should be doing. But yes, of course. I think you’ll see, you’ll see more cases like that.
Susan Stone: You know, Kristina, you’re very involved with the NACDL, which is one of our country’s best associations for criminal defense lawyers.
Susan Stone: If a college facilitates a fund to allow for travel. Do you think there’s any criminal risk or exposure?
Kristina Supler: That’s a really good question. And a question that many of my brilliant ,
Susan Stone: that’s what I asked you, partner.
Kristina Supler: My brilliant colleagues are wrestling with right now and obviously I’m sort of chuckling, but I shouldn’t because it’s a really serious question that some of the most brilliant people in our country are wrestling with in terms of setting policy and procedures for institutions on how to service the needs of students. And without getting too into legalese and boring stuff, the people who aren’t lawyers probably wouldn’t care about the it’s a super complicated issue.
Kristina Supler: Colleges and universities have legal obligations to help students and accommodate students for various issues. But yet there’s also criminal implications and confidentiality issues and stuff like the crime fraud, exception, and, and there’s all these sorts of like very academic issues that lawyers and administrators are, are wrestling with now.
Kristina Supler: And I’m curious, Terry, what are your thoughts? What are the conversations at Columbia?
Susan Stone: Because you could be a well-intentioned administrator, but say. I have my own family and I have an obligation to follow the law. I don’t wanna unwittingly put myself at risk of being prosecuted.
Kristina Supler: Well, and we know so many students look up to their professors or have very close relationships there and there’s trust.
Kristina Supler: So, I mean, Terry, what are your thoughts? .
Terry McGovern: First of all, there’s some other simple things like exclusionary housing policies that we’re gonna see more pregnant college students. There’s that issue? Just a simple one, but I think we are in kind of a crazy time in terms of what is legal and what is not mm-hmm as you just articulated.
Terry McGovern: Nobody knows. I feel the opponents of access to abortion or, and, and the range of reproductive health services are trying everything they can to criminalize those who do anything to protect access. So I wouldn’t ever, de-legitimize the fears of administrators at institutions. On the other hand, we can’t just give in to this kind of mentality. I mean, these are healthcare services. These are young people who are extremely vulnerable. I think what’s happening is people are getting together. Experts are getting together and are giving their best judgment about risk of prosecution, but there is always gonna be some risk here.
Terry McGovern: There’s risk that they may be sued. There’s risk, but they probably won’t win. I say that crossing both fingers. Mm-hmm because as we know, we’re looking at Oklahoma, uh, South Dakota and Wisconsin and it’s a county by county. You have to look at who the prosecutors are, who the judges are, who elected them.
Terry McGovern: So it’s really complicated to predict whether something will be found to be illegal or in violation of a bounty law pro provision or something else. Not a simple thing as you well understand. Mm-hmm
Susan Stone: I wanna switch gears to a whole different topic. Related to this, obviously, because it’s something that has, I’ll be honest with you.
Susan Stone: I didn’t sleep last night and it kept me up all night. So our practice, we do a lot of special education law, and we represent little ones who need 504 plans and IEPs. And, and I have a. Not so secret passion. I love preschool. Okay. I, I loved being the mom who dropped off at preschool. I loved everything about having a preschooler.
Susan Stone: I just think there it’s just a magical age. I also am so worried about young girls having to drop out of college. And I’m wondering with the President Biden’s expanded definition of pregnancy within Title IX, is it an argument out there to say, okay, colleges, you have an obligation to allow those mothers who give birth.
Susan Stone: Those babies should be able to live in the dorm with their mother. You should provide daycare so they can attend class. You should also, I wanna make sure those babies are included within the university health insurance policy. So when they have that ear infection or they need their vaccinations, will those colleges have to create special dorms for mothers and fathers mm-hmm to live and raise their child to see that these young women do not have to drop outta college. I mean, I’m sick about this.
Susan Stone: I love babies. I can’t wait to be a grandmother. I have a daughter getting married and my daughter is supposed to go off to graduate school. And I just wanna make sure that all of these states that have said that this is illegal, that especially the state institutions are ready for these babies. And don’t just kick these women to the curb.
Terry McGovern: No, absolutely. I mean, we know that student parents are 10 times less likely to graduate. There’s so much evidence of the bad economic consequences of young women having babies during college. So of course, if, Let’s just go back to reality here.
Terry McGovern: Mississippi has the highest infant mortality rate in the country. It has one of the, the third highest maternal mortality rate during pregnancy. These states that are taking the lead on banning abortion or criminalizing abortion, or creating bounty hunting are not states that have invested at all in kind of the welfare of women and children.
Terry McGovern: Mississippi’s foster care system has like 111 outstanding violations for abuses. Oh, oh my gosh. So I wanna say that there’s not evidence of kind of an, a real dedication to taking care of any women and girls in the state. Let alone those oncologists. So I think we do have to push, push the colleges to, to step up here and, provide the necessary services.
Terry McGovern: But I just wanna inject a very serious note of hypocrisy about the kind of dedication to, shutting down people’s access to abortion. But not a dedication to, reducing these horrible health outcomes for women and girls.
Susan Stone: would you think though, that the change in title nine or the section 5 0 4, the rehabilitation act or title two of the ADA though, would mandate more accommodations?
Terry McGovern: I would absolutely think so. I would absolutely think so in this shifting context, and I think that’s the path that many are going to take now, and it makes total sense to me and. I know, there’s a lot of people working to actually, provide greater protection in the regulations, even around HIPAA medical records.
Terry McGovern: Right. We have got to go back and look at the ADA and all of, in all of these different contexts and strengthen the protections. So just for a second, HIPAA there’s greater protection and medical records in the context of mental health or drug use, we need that level of protection in reproductive health, on the ADA issues.
Terry McGovern: I think we absolutely have to to use the APA in this context to establish rights.
Kristina Supler: Question for you. Is it possible. One day, the Dobbs decision will be overruled. Do you think a different composition of the Supreme courts might do away with this decision? And, and if so, how far off do you think that is?
Terry McGovern: Interestingly we’ve been working a lot like it with countries where it was criminalized and then. Basically was not. So Ireland, Mexico and what goes on is that they criminalize abortion and horrible things happen. Like, just like we’re reading about every day.
Terry McGovern: There’s confusion about miscarriages. There’s 10 year olds who are forced to, go to term and their bodies can’t take it. All of these things play out and you see public opinions start to shift. So we’ve seen in a lot of countries, a flip. Which I have to say is hopeful. I don’t think as we well know, the public opinion is not in support of what SCOTUS has done here.
Terry McGovern: Right. I think that, to me, when they allowed the Texas law to take effect. Which, invited bounty hunting. That to me said there was no reason in the room. So I do think that, there are plenty of Republican judges who do not support the approach that SCOTUS has taken here. So I do think, yes, absolutely.
Terry McGovern: If the composition of the court changes what we have is a very extremist. Right now. So I do, I do really hope that this could be reversed when the composition of the court changes, which we know can happen when you least expect it.
Susan Stone: Yeah. It’s not always predictable. One of my favorite courses in law school was a Supreme court seminar.
Susan Stone: And I appreciate that seminar at nobody knows the future of the court. And justices have flip flopped.
Kristina Supler: That’s right. It’s people don’t have the static position throughout their entire careers. So, you know, we’ll have to see what the future holds and, hopefully with lobbying and activism and, and people expressing their opinions and becoming more informed on the issue as a whole, that might foster some change.
Susan Stone: Kristina yesterday brought a, as we were preparing for this podcast recently read that Yale and Princeton took a neutral position on this issue. I’m not, I don’t know if you’ve read about this.
Terry McGovern: No.
Susan Stone: And basically stating that the schools will abide by the law, the state a very careful and I would say political position.
Susan Stone: What is your reaction? How should universities publicly respond?
Terry McGovern: I think universities should be supportive of, bodily, autonomy, right? Period. There’s so much public health evidence. This isn’t even slightly controversial. Criminalizing abortion only really leads to poor health outcomes, particularly for the college student group.
Terry McGovern: So if these institutions care about the welfare of their student, They should not be neutral on this point. It is a, it is going to disproportionately impact their students. So I don’t see how you can be neutral. So I have to say, you know, you saw, we were able to, or maybe you didn’t see, we were able to get the vast majority of deans, of schools, of public health to, to sign a letter urging SCOTUS not to overturn Roe. All of the medical associations stand behind the right to abortion, right? So I don’t under understand why these institutions would take this position. And
Kristina Supler: in your opinion and your experience on, on college campuses, what’s what can college students do today to really have their voices heard and to foster change?
Kristina Supler: What can students do who are just sitting there feeling helpless?
Susan Stone: And I wanna clarify this question too. Not just students on public campuses that have more first amendment protection, but can we focus on students who might be at private campuses and states where abortion is legal? What can they do?
Terry McGovern: I am happy. I’m smiling because I had a, a little war room of students all summer. We have so many students coming out of the woodwork to say, we, what can we do? How can we do it? So I think that I’ve seen our students do everything from. Volunteering and staffing, transportation services in states where abortion is now illegal to.
Terry McGovern: Doing podcasts, one of our, doing poetry around their feelings about this decision. I have been so moved by the kind of depth of upset of these young women. They are freaked out about their futures and it has really shifted how they think about their sexual.
Terry McGovern: As well. What I see happening is a lot of outreach, a lot of activism students organizing to make sure medication abortion is available on the campus that they’re on. The students that are in that Ohio school are organizing campaigning. So I’m seeing more activism than I’ve seen out of students since the time I’ve been a professor, which is very hopeful.
Terry McGovern: There are so many different things they can do. One thing that they’re doing for me on a daily basis is research research, like really digging into what judges are ruling. How in this county are the medical records being treated when there’s an attempt to criminalize. I’m working with a group of volunteer law students who are painstakingly looking at judicial records in states where there’s some real risk of people being prosecuted doing research on, what about providers?
Terry McGovern: You know, as a public health person, it it’s horrifying to me to think that we’d say to a doctor, don’t write something down on a medical record, but what needs to be written down on a medical record for the medical care. Right. And what is there that’s extra that could only lead to a prosecution.
Terry McGovern: So. Sadly, we’re in the, the logistics stage of trying to figure out how what’s the best way to protect people. So there’s actually so much for students to do all over the place. And I think it makes them feel much better to do it. So you should see this abortion tracker that our students have created.
Terry McGovern: It’s got every possible per mutation, adolescent consent, et cetera. So, I just think that’s where we get the hope looking at how these young people are responding to this and they’re, they are not gonna leave this alone.
Susan Stone: Christina, I just wanna throw something back to you. Look, we deal with parents from across the spectrum as to how they feel. Sex. Mm-hmm some parents teach abstinence and want abstinence, and some parents are much more communicative about sex, but we know sex goes wrong because we wouldn’t have a career.
Kristina Supler: Would we sad?
Terry McGovern: But true. so
Susan Stone: Terry, what would be good solid advice for a parent of either a high school or. College student with regard to planning, should it change or should it be the same good advice that it always is? We’re a condom. If you have a son and put your daughter on the pill and make sure they have what they need before they go off to college and make sure you transmit your family values, what do you think?
Terry McGovern: I think that’s all great. I also think that, the advice should be that no matter how much abstinence training, like there’s tons of evidence that no matter what people college students have sex and no matter what there are unintended pregnancy. And again, that can be everything from power imbalance to a broken.
Terry McGovern: Right. So then you have to think about what happens if that happens. And now that is a very, very complicated question in lots of states, Oklahoma, Texas, et cetera, et cetera. So I do think that it has changed the picture considerably, even if you’re against, you never wanna think about your college age student having sex.
Terry McGovern: You’ve gotta think about the possibility. If they’re a girl that they could get pregnant, if they’re a boy that they could be responsible for a pregnancy and it’s, it’s going to be very complicated to figure out what to do next. So I think. No matter how much you don’t wanna think about it, you really do need to think about it.
Terry McGovern: If my daughter is in Texas and she gets pregnant, what’s the plan, right? What’s the plan. Because it is something that happens constantly.
Susan Stone: Is the plan more complicated in many ways, if you have a son?
Terry McGovern: I, I have a son and I think it’s comp I. From the minute this decision came down, he’s in Ohio, I’ve talked about this to him. Think about how the picture has changed.
Terry McGovern: You need to be super careful, super responsible, and you need to think about if something goes wrong and you’re part of a pregnancy. What is the plan? What is the plan? Because I think that’s, it is a very different picture. And obviously, also I’m saying. It’s unclear where they get services now that’s being fought out.
Terry McGovern: So there’s a lot more to think about than there was.
Kristina Supler: I think that’s, it’s really interesting to hear that because Susan and I, we, when we talk to parents and students and we give lectures on, on the issues of consent. We talk a lot about the importance of communication in sex. And too often today we’re seeing students not have communication.
Kristina Supler: And this now it sounds like what you’re saying is, is communication is even more important and central to the issue of sex and how relationships can unfold.
Terry McGovern: Absolutely. I mean, I think it absolutely needs to be thought about and communicated, right? Because this is not, these are not what if scenarios, these are true things and something like, I, I watch my son really let it, sink in.
Terry McGovern: If there’s an unintended pregnancy, you. What do you do? Where do you go? You’re now not clear that you can even go on campus. What’s the plan. Are you thinking about that? College students are not thinking about those things. So I think it is very important to think about and talk about. And I do hear that a lot from, the students, the female students are thinking about it what is this? So the boys should be thinking about it too. Right.
Susan Stone: Do you think that in some states, young women will withhold the information from their partner so they can make, so they can’t be stopped. I’m just questioning that. Would that be an, uh, unintended consequence that a, a male would be deprived of knowledge?
Terry McGovern: It could be for sure.
Terry McGovern: I mean, if you’re, if you inject fear and criminalization into this decision, you’re gonna get all kinds of strange behavior. This is why we didn’t want criminalization in this already complicated terrain. So I think you’re gonna get all kinds of terror driven decisions, including probably in some cases not to disclose out of fear.
Terry McGovern: Which is of course, obviously what goes on a lot, which leads to all these harmful behaviors, pregnant people who don’t wanna be pregnant, being scared and thinking, let me take matters into my own hands, right? Mm. Because you can’t really get information and how am I gonna get the money to get a different state?
Terry McGovern: And I can’t have this baby. Right. So you have to think about a young person. I know you all, that’s who you work with, but. It’s really difficult to be a young person today. Just even with everything that’s going on in the world, and now you’re injecting this kind of terror around what if the condom breaks and I’m pregnant.
Terry McGovern: And there is some crazy law that I, my provider can be recorded and a private citizen can report me to, it’s not like the students don’t know all this stuff. They have a vague sense of it. And it’s terrifying now. So I’m very much afraid that it’s gonna lead to all kinds of kind of rash decisions.
Terry McGovern: Unintended consequences will be all over the
Susan Stone: place. I’ll tell you what, I’m predicting that a lot of parents of college students are gonna be called upon to. Make parent babies and, parents who were thinking they had their retirement set are not gonna be in a position to, but they might have to fund and take care of that next generation.
Kristina Supler: Terry you’ve given us so much to think about today and, and so much really invaluable information. Any parting words or anything you wanna share with our listeners
Susan Stone: or anything we didn’t ask you that you wish we would’ve asked
Terry McGovern: you? You One thing that I am really noticing that, um, the students are really deeply disturbed by is these kind of lack of exceptions for incest, rape or to preserve the life of the mother or the confusion around that.
Terry McGovern: I do wanna say that it appears to me that the impact of this decision on young people is that our lives aren’t worth much. And that is that’s heartbreaking, upsetting thing. That’s why. Frankly, it’s been uplifting and amazing to have all these young people here doing, responding to Roe, doing all this stuff because we’ve really unleashed something that is very disturbing.
Terry McGovern: I, I say we, we didn’t, but the court has. So I think we all, all of us parents need to pay a lot of attention to obviously we do, but the mental health consequences of all this stuff on our young people, as they’re just trying to find their way and figure it out and I don’t know, I find it just very unfortunate that this set of, terrorizing, criminalization provisions have been injected into this very complex time in their lives.
Susan Stone: Thank you. I, I. I heavily, there’s the emotion in preparing for this podcast, the gratitude, and really the honor that you agreed to do this podcast and the thoughtfulness in which you provided responses to our questions is deeply appreciated.
Kristina Supler: Thank you, Terry.